2012 MVPs?

[RyanM]

Fielding percentage is a horrible stat to use to defend someone's defense. So he didn't make errors on balls hit right at him.....fantastic. He has ZERO range & gave up FAR more hits than ANY other 3B in the entire league, meaning he gave up more runs to opposing teams than ANY other 3B. You can pull up any site that measures defensive efficiency & it will tell you that.

The Tigers were supposed to destroy the division & win it easily, but instead it took them until the last week of the season so I'd argue they vastly under-achieved. The Angels were supposed to be a contender for one of the wild cards as the Rangers were the clear division favorites, and they narrowly missed out on a spot even though they were a better team than the Tigers (had a better record than the Tigers in a vastly harder division).

And the fact that they faced 2 of the 5 worst pitching staffs in all of baseball more times than any other team speaks to how he achieved a lot of his numbers. His batting average to lead the league was the 2nd lowest by a batting champ in the last 22 years.

[tino38]

Okay well lets be clear when we also say that the Angels VASTLY underachieved this season too. Also there is always going to be a stat that isn't as good as the past evaluate now a days teams have much more dynamic pitching and they have specialists in the bullpens where as 20 years ago there were less. Also you can say the fielding % stat is irrelevant all you want but I think I would rather take the Hall Of Fame voters opinion on that then anyone on this forumn. They may not like it either, but some great defenders such as Brooks Robinson or Scott Rolen. Obviously Miggy isn't them but obviously they aren't the hitter he is either.

Also MVP stands for most valuable player. Meaning who is the most valuable to their team. Well without Trout the Angels wouldn't be as good, but nothing changes because they still aren't a playoff team. The Tigers are a playoff team, without Miggy they are not. Without him we are talking about the White Sox. Miggy is CLEARLY much more valuable/important to his teams success this season than Trout is to his team since with or without him, they still are not a playoff team this year.

[Strategist]

just in my personal experience, i play baseball in college currently, i would take Cabrera on my team any day over trout, even though i would be very happy with either. you always hear managers saying they couldn't come up with a clutch hit to get a runner from second in, it seems to me that Cabrera is the best in the league at doing that.

Yes I have seen the "clutch" numbers althought the only one I would use would be RISP. Where cabrera does have an advantage. I would like to see how many ABs each player had in those situations.

[Strategist]

OMG You guys really cant get over the playoff arguement??? I don't get it... It makes zero sense to make that arguement to me. If the Angels and Tigers switched divisions would Trout then become the MVP???

[Strategist]

Lets do an analysis. MVP = Most valuable player.

Most valuable hitter - Miguel Cabrera with Trout only slightly behind in your guys opinion.
Most valuable base runner - Trout with Cabrera not even in the same atmosphere.
Most valuable defender - Trout with Cabrera not even in the same atmosphere. If cabrera was a great 3rd baseman then he would not have played 1B the last 5 years (don't know actual number of years he has played 1B).

It is a Most Valuable Player award not Most Valuable Hitter Award. Honestly it is so clear that Trout is the MVP. Everyone is just so in love with the triple crown that they feel like he must win it. You know their have been 2 triple crown winners that didn't win the MVP since when does those 3 stats mean you are the most valuable? Cabrara is probably best hitter in the game but he is not the most valuable to his team. As stated above DET .544 WIN % with Cabrera, LAA .588 WIN % (The best in baseball since he was called up) with Trout. How does that not seal the deal right there?

[RyanM]

The hall of fame voters???? You mean the MORONS that never elect a unanimous member & call everyone in the last 20 years cheaters for steroids but glorify the cheaters from the 60's-early 80's that gorged on amphetamines so they could play at peak performance levels every day? At least 40% of them have no business voting on a mayoral election, much less the HOF.

[tino38]

The hall of fame voters???? You mean the MORONS that never elect a unanimous member & call everyone in the last 20 years cheaters for steroids but glorify the cheaters from the 60's-early 80's that gorged on amphetamines so they could play at peak performance levels every day? At least 40% of them have no business voting on a mayoral election, much less the HOF.

Well that's pretty opinion based

[Dan R.]

I seriously am disappointed that anyone in this day and age still relies on Fielding % to determine someone's fielding ability. Not only is it an erroneous stat, it's foolish to rely on it and it's almost meaningless. It's like wins for a pitcher and average for a hitter - not nearly as important as the underlying stats. If a hitter hits .300, but with a .340 BABIP when his career BABIP is .315, chances are he's not hitting .300 next year.

Anyway, here are two much more accurate fielding metrics, provided by FanGraphs

RngR (range runs): The number of runs above or below average a fielder is, determined by how the fielder is able to get to balls hit in his vicinity.

Trout: 15.6
Cabrera: -15.8

Note, Cabrera is 15.8 runs below an average 3B in terms of range. That should tell you something right there.

And, the most important, my personal favorite: UZR, which combines the one above plus other metrics

UZR (ultimate zone rating): The number of runs above or below average a fielder is in both range runs, outfield arm runs, double play runs and error runs combined.

Trout: 11.4 (22nd in all of the MLB)
Cabrera: -10 (worst of any full-time 3B in baseball (min: 1000 innings)

Trout is as good in UZR as Cabrera is bad. That proves my point right there. Throw Fielding % out, Cabrera might not be a butcher when a ball is hit at him, but he can't get to anything not hit directly at him. Of anyone who started full-time at their position (min: 1000 innings), there are only 7 players worse at their respective positions than Cabrera.

[Dan R.]

Btw, Tino, you bing up Scott Rolen as an example of a HoF fielder. Just wanted to show you his lifetime UZR/150 (UZR per 150 defensive games)

Scott Rolen: 14.1
Mike Trout at CF: 13.9

If Rolen's glove is HoF caliber, Tout is only 0.2 UZR/150 off his pace. If Trout keeps up his pace and continues to learn and get better at the position, he could blow that number out of the park

Brooks Robinson played too early for such advanced metrics (people meticulously plot each batted ball to come up with UZR, and we don't have that data from that era), so we don't have his UZR/150. But, chances are, with his reputation, he'd have a fairly large one.

Cabrera has a reputation as the worst fielding 3B in baseball, and the stats back up the scouting reports.

[Onyxgem]

People can use different stats to support their argument and it goes both ways.